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Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:40 pm
by Polygonhell
fredini wrote: When I wired the machine I had crimped on the wire extensions. I'm going to go back through and solder everything so I can rule out anything mechanical before before I play with the pots. None of the motors feel too hot at all so I'm guessing some of the connections can be improved upon and hopefully that is my issue.
By all means check the wiring, always a good idea, but it's not the motors that wil feel hot, it's the drivers on the Rambo board.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:42 pm
by fredini
By "main drive axle", you mean the center one on the outside?
Yesterday I removed the inner one and tightened it up alot. But if I tighten the outer one any more I can't take the inner assembly out to change the filament.

I just tightened both up a lot and will try again, thx!

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:17 am
by v8tony
yea, I forgot to attach the picture... I mean the center one... Don't tighten the idler too far (I did that also)... it binds up the whole things and causes issues... that one needs to be loose enough that you can spin it by hand without the gear moving (at least from my experiance). You rely on the nylon portion of the nut to keep it from moving after you've set it... I had trouble getting retraction speeds above 20 until I loosened that up a bunch, my stepper would miss steps if I tried to go fast on retracts... I didn't hear that you were having that problem, but, just in case...

Tony

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:42 am
by fredini
Seems like the feed is better now but I'm getting the issue where the filament kinks up between the rollers and the start of the Bowden tube. I wonder why the hole for the filament needs to be so small there- wouldn't a larger hole diminish the odds of it kinking up there? Its making me sick how much filament is getting wasted here tonight. I think I'll call it quits and try again tomorrow.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:54 am
by Polygonhell
fredini wrote:Seems like the feed is better now but I'm getting the issue where the filament kinks up between the rollers and the start of the Bowden tube. I wonder why the hole for the filament needs to be so small there- wouldn't a larger hole diminish the odds of it kinking up there? Its making me sick how much filament is getting wasted here tonight. I think I'll call it quits and try again tomorrow.
IMO this is the biggest design flaw in the extruder.
It's probably fine if the tension on the extruder idler is low enough that the filament doesn't distort when originally fed and the filament is free if kinks.
There is too much space between the rollers and the entrance to the Bowden tube, any signifiant retraction caused this issue for me, I've printed a small plastic piece to fit on the entry to the extruder, it has two 1/2 inch radii that run up between the rollers and from very initial testing it seems to have resolved the issue for me, I'll publish the design, but it's not particularly easy to print and could use some work.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:45 am
by fredini
Yeah- now that the idler is super tight it kinks up every time. I will losen it up tonight when I get back to it.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:03 am
by wonderemporium
I also just had a run-in with jumpy motors. It happened once out of nowhere and I though it was a fluke. But then I opened the door with the Rambo board on it during a print and the z motor went nuts. It turns out it was a loose wire. I had only crimped the wires into the pins. I took them all out, soldered them and put them back and now I have no more jumping. I knew something strange must be up with the first jump because missed steps would make a stall, not a sudden vertical movement.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:38 pm
by johnoly99
Hey fredini, if you are using repetier, go to the CONFIG/FIRMWARE EEPROM SETTINGS window and verify that your extruders E_STEPS_MM are 292.0 The next thing to check is in slic3r, under configuration/filament settings you have your filament diameter set to ~1.75 or whatever filament you're using measures. Next, make sure extrusion multiplier is set to 1.0

If all teh above is true, start with a .2mm layer height, with a .3mm first layer height. Sometimes, larger layer heights give poor extruder performance. While it's printing, grab the filament going into the extruder, and fell if it's slipping. If it is, stop the print, take the front idler off the extruder (the black part that comes out when you loosen and move the two bolts down) and disconnect the bowden tube, look down thru the fitting and make sure the drive roller is lined up with the bowden fitting.

Let us know if that works

John

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:48 am
by fredini
Hi John,
Thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely getting close.

First, I must confess that yesterday I did discover that in Slic3r, I stupidly had my filament diameter set to 3.0, which is what my Printrbot uses. After changing this to 1.75, (plus making some other adjustments to tighten the rollers) my issues with filament slipping have greatly improved. However, I am still plagued with filament kinking between the rollers and the end of the Bowden tube. I've successfully printed PolygonHell's piece to help with this (had to print with retraction all but turned off). Maybe tomorrow night I will try to get this installed.

In regards to your points- I have been using the Arduino SDK to update the firmware. Repetier's EPROM settings dialogue doesn't seem to want to allow me to look at the settings. However, In Arduino, I have returned the values for the extruder to 292 (although by my calculations it should be set to more like 317- When extruding 50mm of plastic, more like 46 goes in, so 292*50/46=317.39) .

Looking down through the Bowden tube hole from above, it seems like the rollers line up pretty well with the hole. Maybe the hole is a little over towards the idler insert roller, but side to side it aligns well with the grooves in both rollers.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:41 am
by Polygonhell
The Rostock firmware still has a comment that says it doesn't support EEPROM settings, or is that just for the RAMBO settings?
Either way EEPROM is disabled by default in the current firmware.
Also last time I tried the Repetier host EEPROM dialog only worked if you were running Repetier firmware, though this could certainly have changed.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:54 pm
by fredini
Okay, so I finally had some time to work with the machine again last night. Things are improving, but I'm still plagued by issues with the filament kinking between the Bowden tube and the rollers. I tried printing a couple attempts on PolygonHell's piece to fix this but have yet to install it. I'd prefer to get it working as its intended, but may go for it if I can't fix the problem otherwise.

The settings I used for the print was .2mm layers, but to prevent the kinking I dialed extruder retraction back to 5mm at 30mm/sec. This seemed to stop the kinking, but I'm still getting a bad blobbing at the layer starting point. As a second test print I tried the Pink Panther lady print again. The following shots show the blobbing I am having- I had the randomized starting point option unchecked so you will see the seam going up one side of the figure's left side.

Also, I have the extruder E_STEPS_MM set to the default 292.0, but looking at this I think I will adjust the value as the layers seem to have little skips in them as if the extruder is not going fast enough- don't you think? By my calculations it should be set to more like 304- When extruding 50mm of plastic, more like 48mm goes in, so (292*50)/48=304.166. Isn't this the correct way to calibrate the extruder steps?

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8468/8359682418_31ce8e7fc7.jpg[/img]
New Pink Panther woman test prints by fredini, on Flickr

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8358618361_83d78bb350.jpg[/img]
New Pink Panther woman test prints by fredini, on Flickr

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8184/8359679054_2754cc424f.jpg[/img]
New Pink Panther woman test prints by fredini, on Flickr

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:44 pm
by johnoly99
fredini, i see you found every mans favorite 'calibration object' He, we have PLENTY of them around the shop too, just not any Pink ones? lol Yes, you are exactly right on your calibration of the extruders steps per. From the pic, it looks a little bit like maybe the filament was binding on something and partially stopping to extrude, or maybe rollers were a tad loose.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:48 pm
by Polygonhell
johnoly99 wrote:fredini, i see you found every mans favorite 'calibration object' He, we have PLENTY of them around the shop too, just not any Pink ones? lol Yes, you are exactly right on your calibration of the extruders steps per. From the pic, it looks a little bit like maybe the filament was binding on something and partially stopping to extrude, or maybe rollers were a tad loose.
I tend to agree given most of the layers don't have the morse code effect, I don't think it's an eateps issue I think either the filament is slipping, or possibly you are getting missed steps during a resume after a retract.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:50 am
by fredini
More progress... I did a couple more calibration prints tonight. I updated the E_STEPS_MM to 304 as previously mentioned. I don't really think my filament is slipping anymore. I measured 50mm extruding several times and it seems on the money. This 10-20-40mm object is my favorite calibration object because it lets you take multiple measurements on the print, so I tried a couple of those.

Print 1(left) had two shells and 20% infill.
[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8510/8359673899_1f9758d9fb.jpg[/img]

After that turned out okay, for Print 2 I got brave enough to add some retraction to try and lose some blobbing. I upped the retraction to 7mm at 55mm/sec. No filament kinking and it was a nice print. You'll notice about 4-5mm up is when I turned on a small USB fan I have and blew it toward the print. After that its nice and straight. Maybe I should look at lowering my bed or extruder temperatures? I'm currently extruding at 240 and first layer the bed is 80, then dropping to 60.

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8324/8359674285_646923cfb6.jpg[/img]

After that I went for the pyramid. Solid print with same retraction- 7mmat 55mm/sec. For some reason it kept trying to extrude in the center at the print. In the photo the back left corner arm has a lot of schmutz stuck to it as a result. Also lots of webbing on it too. It definitely needed the fan on it.

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8507/8360738376_15bc5bd54c.jpg[/img]

Last print of the night is going now 10-20-40 again with retraction dialed up to 9mm at 55mm/sec. No kinking but still getting blobs on the corners, but the faces are looking great!

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8084/8360811342_ec6d12bdf4.jpg[/img]
Getting better! by fredini, on Flickr

Any advice on improvements is always appreciated!

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:13 am
by Polygonhell
What software are you using to slice with?
What layer height are you printing at?

It's really hard to gauge just looking at pictures, but I think you are over extruding and printing too hot.
Can you print a 100% infill test cube (the 20x20x10 one) with no retraction at all, and the minimum layer time set at 30s (or with a fan blowing on it) that's usually the clearest indication of how well the extruder esteps are set, it should produce a nice crisp top layer, if you are extruding too much the extruder will start dragging through the plastic part way through the print.

There are two reasons you see blobs, one is an extruder travelling over an edge while dripping plastic, the second is because the head is stationary for too long, usually during a layer change, I think the second is what you are seeing for the most part in your last print, increase the Z speed, increase the X/Y travel speed, reduce retraction, and reduce layer height the last one reduces the overall pressure in the print head, making retraction more effective. Another thing you try is to print the perimeters inside to out or outside to in and see which works better.

You're seeing a lot of stringing on the pyramid, it's not a very easy print even without a bowden extruder, my best efforts though string free still are far from perfect. I do not think you will be able to print a string free pyramid if you are using Slic3r, with Skeinforge/Cura you'll need to enable dwindle, with KISSlicer wipe, with any of them you'll almost certainly need a fan to get good results. I also wouldn't print it solid, I'd probably run 2 or 3 perimeters and no infil.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:27 am
by fredini
I'm using Slic3r, printing at .2mm layer height.
Extruder temp is set to 240. Previously trying to drop that to 230 did not work, but can try playing with that again.
I'll try the solid cube tonight. thx.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:54 pm
by fredini
Polygonhell wrote:What software are you using to slice with?
Can you print a 100% infill test cube (the 20x20x10 one) with no retraction at all, and the minimum layer time set at 30s (or with a fan blowing on it) that's usually the clearest indication of how well the extruder esteps are set, it should produce a nice crisp top layer, if you are extruding too much the extruder will start dragging through the plastic part way through the print.
Where in Slic3r do you set the minimum layer time? I am not finding this setting anywhere.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:04 pm
by Polygonhell
fredini wrote:
Polygonhell wrote:What software are you using to slice with?
Can you print a 100% infill test cube (the 20x20x10 one) with no retraction at all, and the minimum layer time set at 30s (or with a fan blowing on it) that's usually the clearest indication of how well the extruder esteps are set, it should produce a nice crisp top layer, if you are extruding too much the extruder will start dragging through the plastic part way through the print.
Where in Slic3r do you set the minimum layer time? I am not finding this setting anywhere.
It's part of the cooling settings, same place to set when to turn a fan on.
I haven't use slicer extensively since 0.7.2 and it's changed a lot since then.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:15 am
by fredini
[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8370/8362881595_2744c28b45.jpg[/img]
Rostock Max calibration cubes by fredini, on Flickr

Left one printed at 230 degrees(some morse code action going on there), right one at 240. The right one looks pretty good to me. WDYT?

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 am
by Polygonhell
I think it looks pretty good, I can't really see the layers in the picture, but if you have a slight wave in the side and you don't have that on a single wall test print, you might want to turn your esteps down very slightly.
I ended up doing all my ABS printing at 240, and using a fan to cool anything with a significant overhang.
Currently I'm still playing with PLA, printing at 210 with a fan on.

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:28 am
by fredini
This was looking so good when I went to bed last night....
[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8336/8365066454_62ab12e8aa.jpg[/img]
Print fail by fredini, on Flickr

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:37 pm
by Polygonhell
Yeah, ignoring the failure it does look good, some marginal stringing, but the layer alignment looks good as far as I can see and the plastic seems to be going down consistently.
Do you know why it failed, or was it one of those come down to a blob of plastic moments?

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:50 pm
by fredini
Not sure why it failed- It was going well and up to the waist by the time I went to sleep. This model is one of my favorite scans that I've done as it prints quite nicely. The red flourescent plastic is hard to photograph, but the print quality is miles ahead of my Printrbot+.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:32816

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:50 pm
by lazerusrm
As someone who has printed almost 4 spools through his Rostock MAX, and the first to have a functional printer besides the prototypes (as far as i know!) i believe i can offer some input.

So i've noticed a few problems when trying to calibrate the bowden extruder. The real problem lies in finding the exact correct tension on the extruder bolts. If it is too tight, the filament gets squished to a very small diameter, and looses

strength in the bowden tube. This can cause the filament to BREAK OFF in the extruder gears during retraction.

On the other hand, if the extruder is too loose, it will just sit there and grind a flat spot in the filament.

The best way i've discovered to tune the tension on the extruder is to prepare a print, set your hotend to 230-240C (hotter is unnecessary) have your filament tension screws just snug enough to begin engagement with the filament.

You will also want to have plenty of light so that you can examine the knurled extruder gears.

Begin a print (does not matter what it is)

Slowly tighten each screw 1/4 to 1/2 a turn at a time (turn tension on both screws) untill you start to see extrusion out of the hot end. You are getting close.

Once the hot end begins to extrude, you will then want to clean off the filament shavings on the knurled extruder gears.

Once you clean them off, look to see if the filament is still being ground up. you will see evidence of this by small particles of plastic buildup in the knurled grooves. If this is the case, give both bolts another 1/4 to 1/2 turn, and clean

the gears.

I've had success cleaning the gears during a print by using a toothbrush to remove the plastic particles so i can re-examine the bolts for plastic grinding.

Ideally, your gears should not build up plastic in this area, plastic on the gears mean that the filament is not tight enough. The goal is to to get it tight enough, but NOT ANY TIGHTER. Otherwise, on retractions, the filament can easily

end up snapping or getting weak, or not extruding properly.



Now, the other problem i ran into after learning this tuning process, is that the geared assemblies inside the extruder were not tight enough, and it left the inner knurled gear assembly spinning, and not actually pushing on the filament.

im talking about the gears seen in the middle of this picture here:

[img]http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/thumb/b/ba/ExtrudBottom_02.jpg/800px-ExtrudBottom_02.jpg[/img]

http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/thum ... tom_02.jpg

this was MUCH harder to diagnose, because the filament will feed just dandy through the bowden tube, and then once it gets to the hot end it will not put force on the filament. I ended up taking my extruder back apart, and making

sure the internal two knurled roller assemblies were very tight so as to ensure ZERO slipping in this area. ---This had a monumental influence on print quality and consistency.


At this point, i now am getting fairly confident about leaving prints run. My longest successful print this far was a 20 HR print of an AR-15 Lower Receiver. Printed without serious issue in ABS (minor warping but thats another issue.)

I've attached a few photos of some recent prints to show you the part quality i am now getting with my Rostock MAX W/ 1.75 MM ABS Filament. @ .2MM Layers.

I Print on a GLASS Heated bed (Onyx) and i print on 3M PET TAPE (lulzbot) Prepped with an mild ABS/Acetone solution rubbed on it.

I slice all my parts with CURA 12.12A -- NOTE! Older versions of cura have problems with small or slow parts sometimes totally ruining prints. Use 12.12A or NEWER!

Another note, on your first time setup wizard, because the center of the bed is at 0,0 you must set your bed size to X 1MM Y1MM Z (Your Z Height) otherwise your prints will be messed up. also note, when adding files, you must manually set your SCALE to 1 (it will autoscale incorrectly because of the bed dimensions) It will however, slice just fine!

Another Note: I have a fan mounted to my rostock hot end. it helps a lot with small areas or small prints, etc.

Here are my settings:

Layer Height .2MM

Wall Thickness 1.0 MM

Bottom/Top Thickness 1 MM

Fill Density (Various)

Print Speed (20MM/sec - 75MM/Sec)

Printing Temp: 0 (Using Autotemp, set print temp to 0 then add this code in start [M109 S212 B255 F0.4] This is in my start code below)

Bed Temperature (At least 70 Degrees *C)

Filament Diameter 1.73

Packing Density .85

Nozzle Size .5MM

Line Count 1

Start Distance 1.5

Retraction:

Minimum Travel 5.0

Speed 68MM/Sec

Distance 11MM

Extra Length on Restart .6MM

Travel Speed 275MM/Sec
Max Z peed 275MM/Sec
Bottom Layer Speed 20MM/Sec

Minimal Layer time 13 Seconds
Cooling Fan Enabled

Initial Layer thickness .4MM
Duplicate Outlines <No>

Expert Settings:

Extra Wall Thickness 1.0MM

Minimum Feedrate 13MM/sec

Fan on layer 2

Fan Min Speed 15

Fan Max Speed 100

Raft:

Extra Margin 8MM

Base Material 100%

Interface material amount 100%

Support:

Material Amount 70%

Distance from object 1MM

Infil: Grid Hexagonal

Solid Infill Top <Yes>

Infil Overlap 38%

Bridge Speed 20%

Joris <no>

Retract on jumps only <yes>

Enable hop on Move <no> (only with prints with lots of tall, small separate areas)

My Start code:

Code: Select all

;Sliced {filename} at: {day} {date} {time}
;Basic settings: Layer height: {layer_height} Walls: {wall_thickness} Fill: {fill_density}
;Print time: {print_time}
;Filament used: {filament_amount}m {filament_weight}g
;Filament cost: {filament_cost}
G21                     ;metric values
G90                     ;absolute positioning
M106 100                ;Quickly Enable Fan, Then Turn it Down to Low Speed
M109 S212 B255 F0.4    ;AutoTemp Enabled
G28 X0 Y0 Z0            ;move X/Y/Z to min endstops
M106 16                 ;Turn Fan to Lowest Moving Setting
;G92 X0 Y0 E0           ;reset software position to front/left/z=0.0
G1 Z15.0 F{max_z_speed} ;move the platform down 15mm
G92 E0                  ;zero the extruded length
G1 F200 E7              ;extrude 3mm of feed stock
G92 E0                  ;zero the extruded length again
G1 F{travel_speed}
My End Code

Code: Select all

;End GCode
M104 S200                     ;extruder heater Low
M140 S60                     ;heated bed heater Low (if you have it)
G91                                    ;relative positioning
G1 E-5 F4000                            ;retract the filament a bit before lifting the nozzle, to release some of the pressure
G1 Z+2.5 E-12 X-20 Y-20 F{travel_speed} ;move Z up a bit and retract filament even more
G90                         ;absolute positioning
G1 X0 Y0 Z352.0
G28
;M84                         ;steppers off

This first item is something that is currently printing, its the reprap LCD case. it is shaping up very nice. i'll have to post some pictures of it here for reference of the quality you should be getting with a Rostock MAX

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img824/9206/dscn0967d.jpg[/img]

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img546/518/dscn0964f.jpg[/img]

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img717/5295/dscn0962r.jpg[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Re: Got any pointers on the Bowden Extruder?

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:58 am
by fredini
Lazerusrm- thank you for the AWESOME feedback! I didn't have time to print anything tonight- got home too late and this machine is pretty loud, so my wife doesn't love it printing overnight as it wakes her up. Hopefully tomorrow I can continue tweaking.

I have found that this thing really needs a fan going on it while it prints- even with ABS. I just have a little USB fan pointed at it for now but if you have some time to post an image of your fan mount on the extruder I would appreciate it. I think I may want to try this. The other thing I was considering was to just mount a fan on one of the cheapskates so its angled toward the extruder. I guess I thought the weight on the side of the extruder might throw the print off, so the cheapskate solution seemed like it could cause less interference.