Nathan's Rostock build

[nathanstenzel]

I should start out by saying this is my first 3D printer. I just got it on about 7/9/2013.

I contacted SeeMeCNC and they are sending me a few things I could not find and a new endstop switch because I broke one.

Do you really need to use 4 yellow and 4 black wires from the power supply twisted together and plugged into the two terminals? How many yellow and black total does that make? I am at a slight disadvantage since my color vision sucks. I get some help from a google hangout where I show them the wires and they tell me if I have the right ones or not. The thing is, they said I only needed 2 yellow and 3 black and 1 green wire total. They said one of the black wires and the green wire were for the power switch.

There are 2 bundles of wire that are about 9'7" with 4 strands in each bundle. The bundle seems to be a heat shrink tubing or something. Any idea what these 2 bundles of wire are for?

What is PTFE tubing and do I still need that stuff or is it what is on the 9'7" wire bundles?

What is RTV? Where do I get it? Do I need it?

Where do I get kapton tape? Do I need it? I have the boron silicate glass plate and plan on printing mainly in ABS plastic.

[Eaglezsoar]

http://www.geneb.org/rostock-max/Rostoc ... -Guide.pdf Do you have this guide for the assembly of the Rostock Max?
Most of your questions are answered somewhere in the guide.
Your other questions like what is RTV is easily answered by going to Google and typing in what is RTV?
If you plan to build this printer you need to use Google a lot and the guide alot. We are here to help you along the way with technical questions and help but
please, questions like what is RTV and what is PTFE tubing are easily answered by the use of Google. Where do you get these products? The best sources
are places like Amazon.com, Ebay.com, MakerFarm.com and others. Use the search engines and then if you cannot find the answers then we are here to help you.

[nathanstenzel]

Yes, I have the guide. Unfortunately, the kit changed a little bit since the instructions were done and it could use a little bit of refining, but I do have the guide.

I guess this is an acceptable RTV? http://www.wholesalemarine.com/loctite- ... icone.html
This does not sound right. http://www.sportsauthority.com/product/ ... 24972348-2
RTV seems to vary from 108 or less up to 600 or more and most of it seems to be a silicone sealer.
Evidently, "Permatex Ultra Copper Silicone Gasket Sealant" counts as an RTV and it is what we need due to the temperature tolerance, right?

I only saw kapton tape mentioned in one place for around the nozzle as a backup for a bad design flaw of having plastic which expands directly contacting a hot piece of metal. I do not plan to use it on my print bed, but plan to try out hairspray or one of the many other methods of keeping the stuff in place.

The two bundles of wire are not mentioned in the instructions that I know of. I can only imagine that it is for the certain gauge wire. Imagining and guessing while building a kit is not acceptable for me. I paid good money for the kit and wish to be sure of exactly what I am doing with what.

The instructions, as I said are a bit outdated and mentions a totally different power supply that is not rated for as high of a wattage as what is in the current kit. The kit I got has a 480W power supply. The instructions were mentioning what sounded like a much lower watt power supply. The 4 wire thing was supposed to be a way to get the watts needed for the onyx heating bed and I do not know how many watts it draws. 480W is even more than the 450W listed in the order page for the Rostock Max. This leads me to the conclusion that it is possible that the 4 wire method listed in the instructions may simply not be necessary for the power supply that I received. This does not list how many watts it needs http://shop.seemecnc.com/The-ONYX-Round ... egoryId=-1

PTFE tube seems to be some sort of high temperature rated teflon tube, but I have never held it and can't be sure if what I have here is PTFE or not. There seems to be 4 wires in some sort of tube. That is all I know. The one set seems thicker than the other. The instructions do not mention that and so it may be one of those things done after the 2nd edition of the instructions.

I understand that I asked some newb questions. I am a newb. The dude that wrote the instruction manual was a newb when he made it and it sounds like he made 1 revision or pass of revisions to it. Believe me, "RTFM newb" works alot better when the manual was not from a newb and when you can give pages numbers from the manual. "RTFM newb" is essentially what you said although a little more polite. I am a guildmaster in an MMORPG and I make sure every time that I bother to post in my forums for my newbs that I make revision upon revision and gather info like crazy until I know that my newbs will have a very good chance of understanding it the first time.

So, did you assemble a Rostock Max kit that had a 480 watt power supply and 2 bundles of 9'7" wires with 4 wires in each or is there a person on here that you know did?

[Polygonhell]

The multiple groups of wire from the PSU to the RAMBO heated bed circuit is because the wires on an ATX PSU are only 18 Gauge and ideally you'd want something heavier given you will be pulling >10A from it.
I personally not use a pair of wires, and on previous printers I've gotten by with just a single wire pair for the bed, but it doesn't hurt to run more.
If you don't run enough the wire will get hot and if the connection to the connector is poor I've seen the connector melt because of the resistance there.

[JohnStack]

Hi,

A couple of things - SeeMe sources the best based on a price. Most of us wish they had a 480w PS.

Colors of wires: Talk a friend or neighbor to verify yellow and black. The reason why you have more wires at the leads - is amperage. It is safer to use multiple wires. Be safe.

RTV: I used the Permatex Ultra Copper - it can be found at almost any autoparts store.

Kapton: 1/2 Roll, less then $10 - ebay it.

The docs will continue to evolve as @Geneb continues to incorporate feedback - from folks like you and I - into the latest set. He is a community member - like all of us here - unpaid but involved, interested, and ready to share.

Keep posting your status! All of us learn something from each and every post. I appreciate it. I never thought about the color blind. Now I will.

Last requirement not in the manual? Put a smoke detector in the room you're printing from.

[nathanstenzel]

The power supply unit is http://www.logisyscomputer.com/viewsku. ... owersupply

It has 20 AWG wires. It sounds like larger AWG numbers means a thinner wire which means it holds less current safely.

I hear the connector can get hot and melt even if the wire is good enough to hold the current. In fact, polygonhell mentioned it again a little bit ago.

[Polygonhell]

The power supply unit is http://www.logisyscomputer.com/viewsku. ... owersupply

It has 20 AWG wires. It sounds like larger AWG numbers means a thinner wire which means it holds less current safely.

I hear the connector can get hot and melt even if the wire is good enough to hold the current. In fact, polygonhell mentioned it again a little bit ago.

The entire circuit has a resistance of 1.5 OHMS, if you have a bad connection, the resistance of that can be at least that, and the 5A of current will be dissipated there causing it to melt the connector. But it will only happen if you don't make sure the connection is good.
Just use a meter to check the circuit before you plug it in.

[nathanstenzel]

Ok. I found "Four conductor" wire in two spots in the instructions. One is 18ga and one is 22ga. The 22ga is for the extruder motor on the top of the printer. The 18ga is for the hotend and the PEEK fan. I should have my package from UPS tomorrow and will resume work then. Of course, I need to shop for some kapton tape (which I will probably only use in the construction) and some PTFE (high temp teflon, it seems) tubing and some high temp epoxy or Permetex ultra copper silicone sealer.

Guanu says I should use 3 wires for the heatbed to be safe and geneb says 4 wires. I think I read something about that stuff where the 4 wires was excessive from before I heard about rostock max and seemecnc, so I think the 3 wire might work, but I would probably like to do the math. Unfortunately, the onyx heat bed's specs are not listed, so math would be a hard thing to do without the numbers for it. I will have to either do 4 wires or do some meter reading, I guess. That or email seemecnc to see if he can provide the specs on the board. Well, unless one of you knows the specs.

At the least, I have more of a clue than I had a few days ago.

PS: polygonhell, I don't know which circuit you are referring to, but I would guess it has to do with the heatbed. I would not know where to measure either.

[geneb]

1. Stop assuming what you've got is different from what the manual says until you can show where the manual differs and what you actually got (with a picture)

2. The four wire feed from the power supply to the RAMBo while possibly overkill, can't hurt. Quit second guessing the process.

3. While I may be new to 3D printing, I'm certainly not new to highly technical fields.

4. Until you've constructed at least one 3D printer and successfully printed with it, you're not experienced enough to screw around with the assembly process. Do it by the book and once you've got a working machine, THEN start screwing around with things.

g.

[kbob]

Another way to identify wire colors is with a meter. When the power supply is turned on, the +12V lines have +12V on them, relative to the ground wires. When the power supply is off (and safely discharged), the +12V lines are all shorted together, as are all the ground wires. I *think* the ground wires are also shorted to the power supply case.

[nathanstenzel]

Last night, I took my fresh parts (endstop, pulley, tiny screws, tiny grub screw) from SeeMeCNC and fixed the stuff that was not right. I also assembled and mounted my extruder and hotend.

Against advice from Guanu (and I will see later if it results in something bad or not), I ran my hotend and extruder wires down the sides of the extrusion that is to the left of the electronics door. I used the little melamine circles that popped out of my puzzle pieces (the laser cut melamine) as wire stays. I tested the arm against the extrustion and it does not seem to be a problem. They enter and leave the extrusion in areas where the arm mount does not reach.

When one arm is higher than the other two, they were falling to a level position. Guanu said this was bad, so I tightened the screws for the middle rollers. I may later loosen them up and try tightening the eccentric rollers instead, since the middle roller being slightly tight seems to result in uneven sliding resistance between different parts of the extrusion. Perhaps I simply overdid the work on the ends of the arm rods and should have left some friction there. I won't really know until I loosen and tighten different spots and take notes on calibration prints.

The spool holder is also mounted.

I have 2 yellow and 2 black from the power supply going into the electronics bay. I need to do some snipping and stripping and get more in there and do the wire terminal setup, the electronics, the hotbed and the hotend. I need to do some shopping for some stuff to get it all done.

[nathanstenzel]

Wired my power plug with 4 black, 4 yellow, 1 black, 1 yellow, 1 black, 1 yellow.

Soldered my headers on my lcd adapter board. Started soldering the adapter board onto the RAMBO, but decided to put that on pause till I get some soldering flux. I may even upgrade my soldering iron. I never did solder much, so I am a bit worried about my level of skill for the task. I used a multi-meter to make sure I was not shorting some. I will have to retest with it later.

[ApacheXMD]

Started soldering the adapter board onto the RAMBO, but decided to put that on pause till I get some soldering flux.

Did I read that right?

You're not supposed to solder the adapter to the RAMBO. You assemble the adapter board with two headers on one side (for ribbon cables), and three headers on one side (to plug into the RAMBO).

Geneb posted a video to show how the LCD adapter goes together.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdWk5BtttA[/youtube]

[foshon]

The carriages should not support the weight of the arms and the effector. They should move freely up and down the extrusion with no side to side or front to back wobble. The belts and motor torque are responsible for supporting the weight of the hot end/effector/arm assembly. The firmware will disable the steppers after a period of time, mine always drops one of the arms at least a little; this is perfectly normal behaviour. I added a G28 to the start g-code of all my prints to home the machine in case the steppers have disabled before I start.

[nathanstenzel]

Yes, I soldered the adapter board to the rambo board as the video you posted. 7:38 shows him confirming that the adapter board is securely soldered onto the rambo board.

I will most likely loosen up the screws I tightened later.

I have assembled the LCD screen, put the plugs on my cables, tidied up the cables, secured the rambo to the printer and successfully tested my EZstruder extruder. I have also started the hotend assembly. I need to get kapton tape still so I can complete the hotend assembly and do the hotbed assembly.

I need to do the firmware changes so I can test my arm homing feature and make the printer alot closer to usable.

[ApacheXMD]

Yes, I soldered the adapter board to the rambo board as the video you posted. 7:38 shows him confirming that the adapter board is securely soldered onto the rambo board.

No it doesnt. It shows the adapter's circuit board being soldered to the headers which are temporarily plugged into the rambo. Notice how Gene is able to unplug the adapter board from the rambo when he's done soldering.

[nathanstenzel]

Well, I tried homing my printer and the motors went the wrong direction so I used the geneb instructions and uploaded the firmware. That got it so I could use the LCD to home it to the correct location.

When I plugged in the memory card, the behavior of the printer changed. It started moving the printer down during homing again. It did not however continue for more than an inch or so. I decided to undo the change from the geneb instructions to get the thing to move up again, but that did not work. It did move up during homing, but it did not continue till it hit an endstop.

I imagine the memory card had the effect of flashing the EEPROM or something.

I could not use repetier host or anything else to control the printer from my laptop. First, Fedora (17) Linux has a restriction as to who can write to the USB ports. Second, it could not seem to connect to the printer even as root. I don't know what to think here.

[nathanstenzel]

If I understand things right, there is a file that the LCD screen stores on the SD card which can overwrite the configuration.h file that you modify and send to the printer. Is that right? If so, is there a backup of that file somewhere in the SeeMeCNC website or somewhere?

The LCD screen has a limit of 9999 for some motor settings. While fiddling with the LCD screen, I may have allowed it to overwrite those motor settings with 9999 instead of something like 256000. I do not know if that is the reason for my problems or if it was from the SD card or what.

I was nice getting to see my printer actually home its arms last night. Too bad I got something botched up and can't do that anymore. Here is hoping someone can give me the info I need to fix this.

By the way, I have part of my hotend assembled. It is just the 2 resistors wrapped loosely in aluminum and some ultacopper silicone gasket stuff around it.

[Polygonhell]

If I understand things right, there is a file that the LCD screen stores on the SD card which can overwrite the configuration.h file that you modify and send to the printer. Is that right? If so, is there a backup of that file somewhere in the SeeMeCNC website or somewhere?

No there is nothing in the SDCard that can affect the printer configuration, the settings that override configuration.h are in a small amount of EEPROM on the uController.

If plugging something into the SDCard slot changed the behavior of the printer I'd be checking the wiring to it.
Also worth noting if the stepper wiring is bad you can get indeterminate direction of motion.
You can run the entire printer without the LCD/SDCard, and it might not be a bad idea if you are unsure of the wiring to it, get things working then plug it back in.

[nathanstenzel]

I temporarily changed the setting for how far back from the endstop to move when you hit them when homing. The printer thinks it has hit the endstops.

[Polygonhell]

I temporarily changed the setting for how far back from the endstop to move when you hit them when homing. The printer thinks it has hit the endstops.

Go back and do the M119 part of the configuration, then look for wiring problems.

[nathanstenzel]

Ok....Fedore 17....The Repeteir host that comes with the distro is a little old. You have to download the one from http://www.repetier.com/download/. The version of Repeteir Host that I had was 0.84 and it would not talk to the printer even after the following baud rate change.

You also have to look for "Linux" in the configuration.h and comment and uncomment stuff accordingly. A baud rate of 250000 will not work. Use 115200 instead and upload the firmware again.

[nathanstenzel]

Updated to a newer Repeteir Host. Tried with and without the LCD screen plugged in. Tried with and without the SD card plugged in. Unplugged my wires and plugged them back in and tested again. Running out of ideas here.

I hope I did not damage something in the soldering job. Maybe if I did a bad solder job and then plugged in the SD card, it might do something bad.

The endstops are all triggering only when you hold the endstop switch. Tested that via m119.

[nathanstenzel]

By the way, while connected to Repeteir Host, I tried to move my X,Y,Z positions. The X and Y position (this is not the arms I am talking about) worked fine. Trying to move on the Z axis resulted in motor X buzzing. It would respond to the up/down commands with a buzzing to a certain point, but you can't tell it up or down too many times in a row to get the buzz without needing to do the other one to get the buzzing noise.

[Polygonhell]

The buzzing is one of 3 things.
Bad stepper wiring.
Too much mechanical resistance for the CheapSkates, or insufficient stepper current
the Stepper driver overheating

Assuming that you do not think it's the wiring, I would start by looking at the mechanical resistance, it can be either over tightening the screws/eccentric spacer, or over tightening the belts.
If you remove the belts, the CheapSkates should drop freely on the rails.